SBS Australia Telecast Exclusive Interview of Imran Kahn

Everyone acknowledges that the unmistakable Imran Khan was one of world cricket's greatest ever all-rounders. Since his retirement from the game it has become apparent that Imran Khan is no slouch when it comes to politics. These days he is an MP and leader of his own Movement for Justice party. Lately he has been extremely vocal on his country's precarious future. George Negus spoke to the legendary Lion of Lahore from Islamabad.

GEORGE NEGUS: Imran it is really good to see you again but I have to say on the 60th birthday of your nation, it's hardly a happy birthday. Things are looking to be almost in turmoil in Pakistan. How would you describe the situation in your home land as we speak?

IMRAN KHAN, CHAIRMAN, TEHRIK-E-INSAF: In a short sentence, it's the worst of times and it's the best of times. In some ways things couldn't get worse but in a lot of ways, never have we had such optimism for the future because for the first time we are seeing this light at the end of the tunnel. We are seeing an independent judiciary functioning in Pakistan, asserting itself, civil service standing behind this Supreme Court, fighting for its independence against a military establishment.

GEORGE NEGUS: You are confident that despite the fact at the moment that Pervez Mushareff is wanting to stay, Benazir Bhutto is threatening to come back and do some sort of strange political deal with him, that you think a free and fair election is still a real chance?

IMRAN KHAN: The Supreme Court is not going to allow a general to impose himself on Pakistan for another five years. And behind the Supreme Court stands the entire society of Pakistan. What you are talking about Benazir, unfortunately Benazir is compromised because of her corruption cases. She is trying to do some sort of a deal with general Mushareff of power sharing. But it's debatable whether her party will go along with when this deal is exposed.

GEORGE NEGUS: You have actually said that you would see that sort of deal between Mushareff and Benazir Bhutto as a fatal mistake. You said she is completely out of touch.

IMRAN KHAN: The problem with Benazir is that she has been out of this country for almost nine years or 8 years and she doesn't understand that Pakistan has changed. It's changed for two reasons. One is the independent television channels in Pakistan. They have raised the sort of political awareness in Pakistan we never had before. People are politically - they understand the issues, they are aware. You cannot fool them any more. Secondly the lawyers’ community is completely mobilised behind the independence of judiciary and a general democratic system.

GEORGE NEGUS: Where does that leave you then Imran. You have a dictator on the one hand who is trying to keep power, this woman coming back into the country who has been in self exile who you say has been compromised. Where is this democracy you are talking about going to come from?

IMRAN KHAN: In the coming months, General Mushareff has to have himself re-elected by the same assemblies. This is completely unconstitutional. In his way will be standing number one, the Supreme Court. Everyone is going to go to the Supreme Court because it's completely unconstitutional that a serving General tries to pretend he is a Democrat and secondly, I think the old party's movement, except for Benazir all of the political parties are on one platform. We had a huge rally last night. It is the beginning of the political movement against Mushareff and I do not think he is going to survive.

GEORGE NEGUS: Imran, you have said that the so-called war on terror has become a war of terror. Why is it? The rest of the world is looking on wondering why is it the attempts to track down the Taliban and al-Qaeda in your quite lawless northwestern front area, why has that failed and why is your country being seen by many as a nursery for global terrorism, that it all started in Pakistan?

IMRAN KHAN: Let's go back about 20 years back. The CIA, the Reagan administration, they armed people, they trained people, they invited Muslims from all over the Muslim world to do a jihad against the Soviet Union which was occupying Afghanistan. They were trained in the art of terrorism and sabotage, there were camps in Pakistan. They were termed the ones who do jihad. Ronald Reagan invited leaders to the White House and told them, they reminded him of the founding fathers of the US, they were heroes and suddenly now the same people have turned against occupation again of Afghanistan and now they are called terrorists. Unfortunately this is the big problem in this country, suddenly switch from jihad into terrorists. They have a lot of sympathy here. What people in the west do not realise, that this is on the border areas in Pakistan, what is called the tribunal areas, half the tribes on the other side of Afghanistan and half of them are on Pakistan's side, there is no border there. This area has never been controlled by any occupying force or any army throughout history from Alexander downwards. They have fought every invader. Now to think that suddenly just because it is US and the Nato which is occupying Afghanistan, they will suddenly sit down and accept them. I think it's because people do not understand that the history of the whole area.

GEORGE NEGUS: I take your point Imran but how do you react then when you hear an American who advises George Bush saying we must be clear with General Mushareff that if Pakistan won't take out al-Qaeda, the US will. That sounds like a genuine threat of American military intervention in your country. What do you think most Pakistanis would think of that?

IMRAN KHAN: My reaction is that it's another moronic statement coming out of US, the sort of moronic statements that got them stuck in Iraq where there are more than 900,000 people have been butchered because of the most foolish invasion where they thought they would be greeted with garlands in Iraq and that people would be celebrating when the US troops entered. So that miscalculation. Now the same people in Congress at least, the majority of public opinion in US said, bring the soldiers back, there is no military solution. My question to these people is, if there is no military solution in Iraq, how do they think there is a military solution in Afghanistan and our tribal areas. George I tell you right now, there is no military solution. The longer they stay there, the worse it will get. Eventually Afghanistan will become a bigger quagmire than Iraq. The only reason they are not talking about withdrawing troops from Afghanistan is because Pakistani soldiers are dying here, Afghani soldiers are dying there and citizens are dying there. At the moment they there are not many Nato casualties. Therefore, they are putting pressure on Pakistan and sadly we are being ruled by a military dictator who has no public standing in Pakistan right now, who is doing whatever he is told by the US. Was there a Democratic Government here, it would never allow it’s own soldiers to go and kill it’s own people as it is happening right now and the situation is getting from bad to worse.

GEORGE NEGUS: Imran... You... You sounded optimistic earlier. What about a statement from a Senator in your own county who said,”if we don't mend our ways it could spell the end of our country, the Islamist have sleeper cells in every city, we could have a civil war.” Is that an over statement or is that a serious possibility in Pakistan?

IMRAN KHAN: George, remember in the days of the Cold War, every tin pot dictator was saying "Help me otherwise the communists are coming". To get the help of the US they were all fighting communism, even the apartheid regime in South Africa was fighting communism. It is exactly the same thing what is happening in Muslim countries. We have these dictators sitting there and to get the help of the US, remember Clinton when he came to Pakistan would not even shake hands with Mushareff in public because he is a military dictator. Ever since the war on terror Mushareff has become this bastion against terrorism, but this is only to get US help. The ground reality is that you can only fight terrorism if the terrorists are perceived as terrorists in the community they operate in. If they become heroes in the community they operate in, the war is finished, the battle of hearts and minds is lost. You can't win the war.

GEORGE NEGUS: Imran, finally a question that is close to this country, in the last 24 hours the Australian Government has made a decision, they have agreed to allow uranium exports to India despite India's refusal to sign the international non-proliferation treaty and they say they are only going to give them the uranium on the basis that it is used only for peaceful power generation. As a Pakistani and your country has been at odds and there has been threats of nuclear confrontation between you and India for so long now, how do you react to Australia going into a uranium sale deal with the Indians?

IMRAN KHAN: I see this is as a total failure of Pakistan's foreign policy.

GEORGE NEGUS: Do you think we should be doing it, Imran?

IMRAN KHAN: Absolutely not. Because it has to be even-handed. What is going to happen is that in the Generals will use this as a threat, India is getting stronger, so they have to have balance of power, more money will be spelt on arms, not on our human beings. We are already not spending enough money on our human beings which are than lacking behind. You will have money diverted from human development into arms development and we will an arms race in the subcontinent which the poor people in either of the countries can't afford. I think it's a failure of its foreign policy despite being the front line state in war on terror, here we have a situation where India has suddenly become the blue eyed boy for the United States and clearly the western world.

GEORGE NEGUS: Imran, it's good to talk to you and see you again and good to know you are bowling the odd bouncer.

IMRAN KHAN: OK George, all the best.

GEORGE NEGUS: You too. We will talk again.

Email this page to a friend!